But making those kinds of rookie mistakes after doing hundreds of episodes, it's embarrassing, but it happens. It's one of those unexpected things that happens just like in software. But I don't know what I'm trying to say, but those things happen and you make mistakes no matter who you are. Hey, everyone and welcome to Developer Tea. My name is Jonathan Cutrell and in today's episode we pick up where we left off with David Rael. Dave is the host of developer on fire. He's interviewed incredible people like Sandi Metz, Uncle Bob, that's Robert Martin, DHH, word cunning him and a whole list of others. He has 175 episodes as of this recording. Go and check it out at developeronfire.com. Of course, that link can be found in the show notes. We're going to pick right up where we left off in the last episode. If you missed out on that first one, you may end up feeling a little bit discombobulated or like you're jumping in the middle of the conversation because you are. We cut the conversation basically right in half. So go and listen to that episode. Now, I'm going to stop talking so we can get to the interview with David Rael. So another thing that I've learned from podcasting, I want to see if you've kind of felt the same thing. You kind of alluded to it a few minutes ago, but it's this idea that really kind of the buck stops with me. If I don't push this forward, if I don't stand in front of the mic, if I don't contact guests or if I don't ultimately create this content, then no one else is going to do it for me. No one else can jump in front of the mic and take over unless, of course, I tell them too. Ultimately, the buck stops with me. If I don't get an episode done in time, it's not going to go out. That's right. People are not going to listen to this podcast because it just simply won't exist. Yeah. It's, that's really appealing to me that there is no excuse. There's nobody to blame. There's, you know, that's it. If it doesn't happen, it's because I didn't make it happen. Now, there are a lot of circumstances around things and finding guests and getting them to commit to a schedule. And I had one guest who, when I contacted him the morning of the show and said, hey, we're still good for today. And he was like, well, I thought, I planned something else. So I was like, really? Well, okay. And so those things happen. There are a lot of those kinds of circumstances. But yeah, I've been stood up quite a few times, actually. Yeah. It's a very frustrating feeling. And that's actually a lesson that I learned. It's one of those, you know, you learn how not to be kind of lessons. Don't stand people up, by the way. If you're going to an interview or if somebody has asked you to meet them and you don't tell them that you're not going to be there and then they show up and you're not there. That's one of the biggest, most disrespectful things that you can do to someone. Obviously, I don't like to throw people under the bus. I don't think that's a professional thing to do, but certainly don't go out of your way to hurt someone else in their career and don't go out of your way to not be somewhere. Right? Just don't make the plan in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Anyway, that's just a complete aside, a momentary rant to a fellow podcaster who has experienced the frustration of sitting in front of the mic with the headphones on, waiting for somebody to sign on to Sky. Indeed. Yeah. Great. So this idea of podcasting or really it's more about content publishing, right? You said you spoke with Jon Sommez and he was actually on Developer Teaas well at one point, very early on in the episode list. You can find Jon Sommez, but we talked about that idea of branding. I want to kind of open that discussion back up with you and really ask, you know, what role does publishing play for you in that self branding process? Well, I think sticking to a schedule, I think is the first thing that comes to mind that you give a message of being reliable to an audience. And as that audience grows from dozens of people, 200s, 2000s, and we'll see, you know, ultimately where that goes, you know, it's really ultimately saying here is someone who is reliable and is going to, you know, do the things that I say I'm going to do. So I think that's a, you know, bar non stop, you know, that's the start and end of it. And then beyond that, there is that quality aspect, right? You know, I think, you know, both developer on fire and Developer Teaare delivering useful things that people can get something from with every single publish. And that is something that sends a message as well. So, you know, that branding, you know, Jon Sanmez is, you know, it really emphasizes that, you know, being consistent and that that's how you build a following and that you build a name for yourself. And you know, I'll add that, you know, Jon's, how to market yourself as a software developer package was instrumental in my, you know, deciding that this was something that I wanted to do. And I told that story on that interview with Jon and I can tell you more about that if you want to, but or, you know, can direct people to that interview that I did with, with Jon Sanmez where we talked about that. But there was, there was one of the interviews that he had in that package with Penal Dave, who is an Indian programmer. And you know, he, he has SQL authority dot com is his blog. And he, he posts to his blog every day. So, you know, he writes a blog post every day. And I had him on the show. And you know, that was, that was an epic episode with, with Penal and, you know, talking about, you know, his, his dedication to blogging and what that has done for his career is, you know, it's, it's really inspiring to hear about how he has, he, he called his blog his master, right? He serves his, his master and it has really benefited him to do that. While it's, it's really strong language and it's really interesting to hear that, that people see this really, it's not, it's not something that you do on the side or, or do it because, you know, you're bored, right? That's not what this stuff is about. You can't commit to something because of boredom. That's not going to happen. You're not going to do well with that. You also can't commit to something just because of the excitement that you get over the course of a weekend, right? Really committing to a, a publishing schedule or even if you're not going to commit to a publishing schedule like Dave or Penal or myself, building that brand for yourself, building the idea of dependability or developing your authority. You know, that's, that's one of my main reasons for creating Developer Tea is because I want to develop authority legitimately, right? I want to actually explore these subjects and develop authority legitimately and I believe that you're sharing this content, teaching other people, helping other people find success. That's the best way to actually develop authority. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that totally. I would say though that you need to do it for yourself, right? To start with because when you begin publishing content and, you know, kind of going back, I guess, to that, that, you know, the context of talking to the person who is embarking on this journey, right? Whether it's publishing content or just getting into the career and those kind of things, you know, if you are doing this because of the huge audience that you're going to build, that's probably not a good initial focus because it's going to be a long time, right? I got, I'm on an email list for Jonathan Stark, who is, he's the hourly billing is nuts, software consulting guy and, you know, value based pricing and all that kind of stuff and he was on developer on fire as well. He just launched his podcast and he sent out a mailing saying that, you know, on the first 24 hours, he had 700 downloads of his podcast or 700 and so on, right? And, you know, I thought, wow, that's, that's pretty awesome. He's got an existing audience and all of that. And I remember, you know, the first day that I released my first episode with Jon Sonmez, by the way, you know, I got 22 downloads, right? And so, you know, it's, it's humble beginnings and it takes time to build an audience. And so, you know, I mean, if you've got your eyes on the big audience, it's, that's not going to be, well, you know, unless you are a really exceptionally patient person, that's not going to be the motivation that's going to get you through that, you know, up, up over the hill to get you into that promised land. It's going to take, that you are getting something from this, beyond just, you know, trying to build authority and some of those things. So, you know, I mean, by all means, you know, yes, you want to build an audience, you want to gain authority, you want to have all of that kind of stuff. But there's got to be some intrinsic, you know, some, something that you enjoy about whether it's writing or speaking or some of those things. And there's got to be something there. Absolutely. I think it's kind of the, the idea of a fad diet. Yeah. You, you have this energy because you see the end goal, right? You want to jump to that end goal the fastest way possible. And that's really not the best way to look at it. This is more like a long term investment. Yes. That's what this, that's, that's the way you have to look at this kind of thing. Day one is going to be equally effective as day two and day two will be equally effective as day one. But neither of them are going to get you today 10,000 right? Right. And then you're going to get some more realistic, realistic number would be something like day 500, right? You're not going to jump straight into even success at any level. There's no guarantee for any success. The process of publishing is going to refine you though, right? The process of figuring out the things that you actually want to contribute and create value in the world, not because you see the, the return on that value necessarily. But because you actually believe in doing something, creating value in the world as a, a function of just your life, right? That's kind of the core idea. Yeah. Building something that is valuable as a function of your life. Are you driven to actually, you know, do something with your life or not? And it sounds very, it sounds like we're kind of minifying this concept all the way down to, are you, are you a good person or not? But really, it's more than that. It's about actually taking the things that you believe about yourself and doing something with them, turning those, turning those beliefs into actions. Yeah. That's, that really speaks to my heart because there was, for years, I felt like I really had something to offer and that there were big things in my future. And I wasn't really taking action, right? I was expecting that it was just going to happen because, because I had something to offer. But it's not until you actually take action on that thing, you know, that you actually do something that somebody can realize that you, that you do, in fact, have something to offer. And, you know, that, you know, as developers, marketing often gets a bad name, right? I've, but it heads with marketing departments a lot of times. And I've always thought that they were kind of bad people, which was of course ludicrous. But, you know, marketing really at its core isn't all about manipulating people into buying something that they don't want, right? Marketing done right is having something worth having and letting other people know that here's something that will benefit them. Yeah, absolutely. I believe it's Jon Somme as actually that also says that if you have something of value, then you really shoot like it's like a moral imperative to sell it, right? Like, you, you need to be able to sell this thing because it is actually going to make someone's life better or it's actually going to help them, you know, further their career or whatever that particular thing does. Yeah, if Jon wasn't selling a package for a couple hundred dollars and I didn't buy that and I didn't get that interview that he did with Penal and I hadn't done the blog commenting challenge that Penal talked about in there, which I tell that story on the episode with Penal and also in that interview with Jon. So, you know, I don't know if you want me to repeat that here, but, you know, I've commented on Penal's blog and on Jon's blog and on the.net rocks podcast show notes, you know, just day after day after day after day and that was kind of the, you know, Penal having giving that challenge was the, was the genesis of me getting involved. And if it wasn't for that, you know, if it wasn't for Jon trying to make a buck, then, you know, I would, well, I don't know what I would be doing right now. Yeah, sure, sure. Incredible stuff. Dave actually has a whole list of his episodes, by the way. We've referenced so many of them. I'm not going to list them one by one in the show notes because it'd be easier. One 19 is the episode with Penal and then episode one actually is 001, which is June 13, 2015 was, was Jon Sanmez. Thinking back that long is, is a long journey at, I know I started Developer Tea in 2015 as well back in January. And there's so many things that have learned on that path and it's, it's really refreshing to talk to another person who is, who has gone down a similar path in the podcasting world. So thank you very much for talking to me about the podcasting, the, the effect of podcasting on your career. Yeah, yeah, I, I, thank you very much to you know, you're welcome and thank you. And yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great pleasure. And yeah, it's definitely nice to talk to a like mind. Today's episode is sponsored by Chartio. Chartio is built on the premise that your data is in multiple places. If you're like most businesses, you may already be using multiple sources of analytics or charging data for your customer charges, maybe even keeping sales reports in a local Excel file or CSV. This is a very common thing and you shouldn't feel bad for not having your data all in one place. The reality is trying to keep all of your data together in one place is really a very tedious process. It takes a ton of developer energy and, and the value is not really a commensurate to the amount of energy that you're going to spend. This is what Chartio does for you. It takes all of these data sources and it creates a single source for you to be able to analyze all of those key metrics that you want to analyze, whether you are a business person or a developer, it is friendly for both ends of the technical spectrum. If you've had to struggle with bringing all of that data in yourself, then you know what I'm saying, trying to wrangle a bunch of different APIs and bring them into a unified way of looking at that data that can really eat up a lot of resources. Chartio will solve this problem for you. Go and check it out. Spec.fm slash chartio. You can get a free trial so you really don't have anything to lose. Spec.fm slash chartio. Thank you again to Chartio for sponsoring today's episode of Developer Tea. So I'm going to switch gears again on you, Dave, and I'm going to ask you a totally different question. I guess it's somewhat related. We've talked about committing to a schedule. We've talked about some of those things. So I'd like to hear a little bit about your normal routine. This is the kind of stuff that people who are listening to this podcast, they really want to learn how developers shape their lives, how successful developers shape their lives. What is your normal routine, both for the podcast as well as just your average day? What does it look like? Well, the average day part changes depending on am I working a contract currently? So I do still do development consulting and contracting and some of that stuff. Actually those are remote gigs where I can just work from home. Currently I'm actually working on site. So doing back and forth between an office, which is something that I don't particularly like and something that I'm going to try to avoid in the future. But so currently my life is a little bit different than it usually is because I am going to an office. So when I'm not doing that, I will split my day up usually using the Pomodoro Tech Neck. So I'm sure you've probably come across that. The idea is work for a short period where you can focus intently and have no distractions and take short breaks in between. That's how I do my day. And rather than counting the number of hours that I usually count the number of Pomodoro's that I've completed. And I consider that I used to think that I'd try to do 12 to 14 Pomodoro's. And when I do that, the... That's quite a bit, isn't it? Well, that's what I used to do because it was way too much, right? Chris Winfield, who has been on the podcast. He's not a developer. I've had a few non-developer guests on the show. He talks about the Pomodoro technique and he recommends basically treating a Pomodoro like an hour. And he has this gigantically, strataspherically successful blog post about 16 and 2-thirds hours a week and getting more done than anybody else is doing in 40 hours a week. So I do more than that. I don't do a 40 Pomodoro work week, but a 12 Pomodoro day is way too much. So finding something in between there is my typical. So I wake up early in the morning. It's not necessarily that I've chosen that. That's just what my body does. It's been years since I've used an alarm clock. So I get out of bed. I usually wake up sometime between 3.30 and 5 o'clock in the morning. So you mean very, very. Yes. Yeah. Of course, the flip side of that is that I get my kids into bed at night and I'm a zombie. I mean, I completely. So it's not like I'm up all night and then, so I do get my sleep. But yeah, I wake up extremely early. And I like to listen to podcasts. I usually lay in bed just listening to podcasts for a few minutes before I get up and then make my bulletproof coffee. So this fat bomb that I have in the morning that gives me my energy during the day that involves butter and oil and coffee and then just hop to it. Well, I like to meditate and I don't always do it, but I like to meditate before I start digging into doing stuff. And then if I have some interviews on the calendar and I usually, you know, to on a given day, I used to try to batch them and do, you know, like four interviews in a day. I have learned that if I do two interviews in a day and then I try to do more than that, the quality suffers. So you know, just like you were talking about. I can't handle it. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it takes a lot out of me to do these interviews. So it's fun and rewarding and wonderful as they are to talk to people. I am tired and I need a break afterwards. So, you know, I can line them up back to back and I usually do that because I could do really like that, you know, I can get those things done and then move on to doing something else and, you know, that kind of stuff. But it really does. It takes a toll on me. So, you know, when I do the interviews, that's, you know, that's what I do. And then I, you know, I do the editing still with audacity. And so, you know, I do that. Very nice. I was saved, save those files and then I wrote some code to where I have a folder in my Dropbox that once I put edited files into my Dropbox, my code sees that there's new files there and it will append my intro and outro onto the thing and it will then it sends me emails saying, upload the, the, the, the headshot for, for the guest for this episode. And so, you know, I've got a webpage that I, you know, I click on the link there and upload the photo and it sends me another email that says, come here to do the show notes for, for this thing. And so then, you know, I, I click that link and it starts playing the audio in my browser and I've got some keyboard controls to where, you know, I can do timestamps and, and, you know, add links into the show notes and, and book recommendations. So, you know, I've got some code that queries Amazon for the books and, and some of that stuff. And so, that's how I do my, my editing and show notes for the stuff. And then once, once I submit both the, the headshot and the, and the show notes, then, um, that uploads my, my, what it does, the tagging of the audio file, it uploads the audio file to hosting and then it schedules my blog post for creation as well. So that's, that's kind of my process of how I go through that. So I think I might have lost track of the question. You were asking kind of both about my routine and daily life and I think kind of about how I do the podcasting. So I've, I've rambled on. Does that answer the question? No, it does for, yeah, for the most part, it really I was asking about, you know, normal routine where your habits look like it's a big one that people are looking, looking to answer for themselves usually is what is my morning look like? What is a typical morning for me? What should I be doing? And really, I think the interesting answer that's emerging from you is, um, that, that may not necessarily be the same for everyone, right? A lot of people say that, uh, well, you know, waking up really early is, is the only way to be productive. Some people say that's ridiculous. That's, that's crazy. So it's interesting to hear that you actually naturally do that. It's not something that you've turned into do, but rather that your body is just kind of wired that way. Yeah, you know, my, my friend, Ari, my cell, who is a productivity expert and another one of these non programmers that I've had on the podcast, he's got this app that he created called the less doing peak time app, I think is the name of it. And, uh, you know, it's, it's available for iOS and Android and you can, you can put this app on your phone and it's basically just a tap test, right? So it's just, you know, the timer starts and you just start tapping away on your phone and it counts how many taps you can do. And if you do that test during different times of the day, his theory, his, his, his, you know, assertion with this thing is that at that time of day where you are at your peak and you're at your best, that's when you can tap the fastest on the phone. And you know, how true that is, I'm, I'm not completely sure, but I think it, it stands to reason that when you're at your best, you can probably perform that kind of motor activity pretty well. And so, um, that, that's one way that I would recommend to, you know, uh, figure out what is your, your peak time of day and do those activities that require your maximum focus during that time. Yeah, I think that's, that's really interesting. I actually downloaded the app, uh, as you were continuing to talk about it there because it's, well, first of all, it's a very relatively simple app. So I assume it's pretty small, uh, download it very quickly. Yeah. I'm interested to try it out now. Um, I mean, you know, I've never really even thought about that kind of motor school translating to my mental energy, but, um, but they really are burning the same kind of thing inside of me. Right? Like, uh, my, my brain is telling my finger to do something. And so, um, it stands to reason. Like you said, that, that that could be connected. Obviously, the, the, I'm sure the, the jury is still out on that one, but, um, that would be interested to see, you know, I, I like that concept, though, the idea that, hey, you know, work during the times where you're going to work well, right? And for some people working well is in the morning. There is some science to support that, uh, obviously, uh, you know, the science about decision fatigue and something we've talked about quite a bit on this show. But, you know, there's a lot of science that, that kind of underlines the idea of doing the most important things earlier in the day, uh, before you have reached that point of decision fatigue. But some people also have, at least anecdotal experience with, uh, the night being their, the kind of their muse time, the time that they can really tap into that creative energy, whatever is causing that, I'm not really sure. Um, maybe they actually do save some of that decision, uh, making power until later in the night. Yeah. It's interesting too. Tim Ferris talks about that, you know, he writes best in, in the late nights and with wine. And, uh, you know, I think there is something different about the, the creativity of putting words out and, and, you know, that type of content versus writing code, right? I mean, I definitely, uh, I write my best code early in the morning and that's, that's how I do things. And really, I think, you know, if, if I have some coding tasks that I want to get done today and I can finish it before my kids get out of bed, that to me is, that's bliss. That is absolutely beautiful, right? So, you know, but yeah, not everybody is the same. And, and I think that's kind of the message of the peak time app is, you know, try to figure out what that time is. And, you know, maybe the tap test helps with that. Maybe it doesn't, but, uh, experiment is really the message there. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with the, with the concept of experimentation. Really, that's just, uh, and if you're not familiar with experimenting in general, really all you're doing is try something, take some notes about what happened, try something else, take some notes about what happened, what happened, and then compare them. Yeah. That's, that's really what you're trying to do. No question. So, uh, I have, I have a couple more questions for you, Dave, and then we'll wrap this thing up. Moving along with this idea of hobbies, I'm sorry, of habits. Do you have any particular goals in the short term or or in the long term that you'd like to share with the developer to your audience? Absolutely. Yeah. So, one of the things that I'm really, uh, obsessed with recently is just the, the, the degradation of the level of discourse that I'm witnessing. And I'm sure everybody knows exactly what I'm talking about. You know, especially here in the US where, uh, you know, this, this, uh, this ridiculous election nonsense, uh, you know, has everybody hating everybody, right? It's, you know, if you disagree with me, then you're not my friend anymore, uh, kind of, kind of, uh, a sense going on. And I want to try to do something about that. It is, uh, obviously an ambitious mission to try to tackle something like that. But I think, you know, uh, the, the, the business of the world of, uh, you know, that we cannot peacefully disagree, that, that there needs to be animosity. And I question somebody's, you know, their, their, their intent, their competence, their, their intelligence because of, you know, some disagreement about a political thing is driving mean nuts. So I want to do something about that. And I think that something is going to be that I want to start a podcast, uh, which I've already done. But I want to do another podcast, you know, developer on fire is something that, uh, you know, it's been awesome and it is awesome. And I, I'm going to continue doing it. Um, but it has limitations, right? And I think in the beginning, it was wonderful for me that developer on fire was, uh, pretty wrote, you know, there, there's a, there's a script, right? The set of questions and it's, um, you know, different every time, but, you know, with a common structure and, and that. And, uh, you know, I, I listened to podcasts like, um, like the Jill Rogan experience, which is, you know, just a three hour marathon of just no plan, just a conversation. And, um, I think I wasn't ready for that when I began developer on fire, uh, but I think I am now and I think I'm ready to do something beyond software. So I want to create a new podcast, uh, while continuing to do developer on fire, I'd, you know, don't, uh, don't panic any developer on fire listeners out there. I, I, I intend to continue this and, uh, you know, it may be not forever, but, uh, you know, forever as far as I can see for now. Um, but I, you know, I want to do, uh, not politics. Politics, politics to me is, you know, arguing about which narcissists it's in an office, right? I want to talk about philosophy about the ideas behind it. And, you know, really how we relate to one another and how we can get beyond some of our disagreements and, uh, see each other as worthy of, of civil discourse. Sure. Yeah. That's, that's a, so you've heard it first, uh, on Developer Teathat Dave, David Rael is going to, is going to start another podcast potentially. We don't know when that's going to happen, but, uh, or do you, do you have a, do you have a date in mind? I, I'm thinking early 2017 is going to be the launch of it. I'm, I'm working this, this current contract that I'm on through November. And I'd like to, uh, do some of the, some of the legwork for it for in December and, uh, and then, uh, in the new year, I, I don't want to commit to a specific date, but early in 2017, I think will, we will, we will see a new podcast and it's not going to be a developer podcast. That's great. So, uh, how can people find out about it? Do they, should they follow you on Twitter? Where should they follow you? That's, that's probably the best place. Yeah. Although, you know, I, to an extent, I, I really, I don't want to pollute my Twitter with non-developer stuff because I think that that's, uh, you know, that's, that's what it's all about. And really, that's one of the things that's been bugging me is that, you know, Developer That I'm following are, are, uh, yelling at each other, right? Um, so, uh, you know, so I, I don't want to be that very thing that I'm complaining about. Um, but, uh, I will, uh, make some kind of announcement about it on Twitter. I might not to be easy to find their, um, you know, that, that's a good question. I hadn't really thought this through. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's say Twitter, Rayard on Twitter is probably the best place to, to find out about that. Perfect. Yeah. And even if you don't hear about it from, from there, I'm sure, uh, that if I see it, I will retweet it or I will send out a, some kind of message on the internet. It will be somewhere, I'm sure. Yeah. Definitely. So, I actually have experienced a similar thing. And there's, um, the, there are kind of brackets, limitations on Developer Tea, because I want to create, uh, content on Developer Tea, I really enjoy creating content for Developer Tea. It's a, uh, very interesting channel to me. Uh, but I also have other interests, right? I'm not just this, uh, this kind of easygoing guy only, yeah. Perfect. Uh, there are other things going on. Um, so I, you know, I'm maintaining Developer Tea, the content that's on Developer Tea, and it's intentionally approachable. But there's other things that I'm interested in. I've actually considered starting other podcasts as well. So we'll see if that, if that happens down, down the road. Yeah. Uh, of course, you know, um, there's tons of other developer and, and designer podcasts on spec. So, uh, but I, I don't think it's actually going to end up being a designer developer podcast if I do start one. So. Yeah. Something different, I think is really appealing. And the other constraint about developer on fire too is that, I mean, that show is about the guest, right? I mean, I am, I, you know, when you come on developer on fire as, as a guest of the show, I am featuring you. I'm telling your story where I'm facilitating you to tell your story, right? And so me interjecting my, my opinions on those things, I think is valuable when it's relevant, uh, but at the same time, um, you know, I, I hold back on, on, uh, you know, on really expressing my views on things, at least to an extent, you know, it's, so, it's, uh, I think something where I'm, it's more conversational and it's more, uh, you know, I'm free to challenge things and I'm free to, uh, really explore that, that ability to connect with people and, uh, and find areas of common ground, even when we disagree. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's fantastic. I'm excited about it. Yes. I have a couple more questions for you. Uh, like I said, we'll wrap it up. These are the two questions that I ask all of my guests. The first question that I have for you is if you could give every developer one piece of advice walking away from this podcast, what would it be? So I've said, I, I have this, uh, this mantra that I've introduced to my life and, uh, doing the podcast is a big part of it. And the, the mantra is punch fear in the face. And so, you know, the, the message, the advice is get involved, get out there and do it, right? Talk, uh, you know, ask that girl for a date or that guy, you know, whatever the case may be for your particular gender, your particular preference, whatever it is, right? Uh, don't stop living in fear, right? Because living in fear is the thing that kept me from being an engaged member of the community. And now that I am doing that, it, it changes everything and life is so much better when you, you just asked for things. And the, the biggest lesson that I have learned from doing the podcast is, uh, you know, in getting these guests, right? And you've talked about it. You know, I've had, you know, the, the Uncle Bob's and the DHH's on the show, uh, you know, in Jon's Keat. Wow. You know, I got to talk to Jon's Keat. It's, it's absolutely astounding. Um, you know, just ask, right? You know, those people are people too. And if you ask them to have a conversation, chances are they're going to do it. And so, you know, punch fear in the face, get out there and do it. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with that because really that fear, those, those, those messages of fear that you're telling yourself are, uh, well, this person is going to think that I am fill in the blank, right? That I'm not good enough to be sending them an email. And what you're doing by stepping out and, and sending that email is just as much as you're affirming to them that you are, in fact, you believe that you are, in fact, worthy of their time, right? You are also affirming that to yourself. And every time you take a new step like that, it's going to embolden you further to take new steps into the future. That's the only way to advance your career. You are holding the, the baton to advance your career and not just your career, but also your, just your life, your personal life. So absolutely agree with that punch fear in the face. I like it. Yeah. And the last question that I'm going to ask you, Dave, thank you so much again for being on the show. What do you wish more people would talk to you about? And this can be anything. It doesn't have to be developed or related. That's a tough question. I hadn't thought about that. This is always the hard one. Yeah. I want more people to tell me what they really want, right? That's really along the lines of that message there, right? I've learned that telling people what I want from them is, is liberating, right? I want other people to have that same experience, right? So with me, right? If you want something from me, please tell me. And you know, that's not a promise that I'm going to give you whatever it is that you ask for. But knowing that you asked and, you know, I am not going to tell you, you know, bug off, go away, right? You know, if the answer is no, it's going to be a compassionate no. So you know, I think that's the thing, right? Because I want honesty about what people are looking for. And you know, that I think would be the thing that I want most. And beyond that, you know, I really like talking about philosophy and some of those things. And I have hesitated to do that. I've been fearful of the response that there may be. And I think rightly so in a lot of ways. But I think I'm going to loosen those restrictions, though in the right context, right? You know, I think, you know, I definitely, you know, developer on fire is going to continue to be what it has been because I think it works that way. And it's good for people. And so, you know, I want different channels to talk to people about different things. And so that's, that's, I guess, my message there. Yeah, it's great. And I, that message resounds with me as well. The idea of clarity, of honesty, of breaking down that barrier of, you know, trying to manipulate other people, manipulation. People can, can smell that from a mile away, right? It's, it's very obvious, you know, to the average person when you're not actually being upfront when you're not telling the truth. And so, more often than not, it's going to serve you better to be just as honest as you can. Yeah. Yeah. Which sounds, it sounds antithetical to a lot of advice that people who are listening to the show, you've probably heard over the years of, you know, don't, don't show your cards or whatever that crazy advice that you've received in the past about, you know, power, power dynamics and that kind of thing. The age now, the people who are in business now, especially the millennial generation and, and beyond that, we value transparency far more than we value power. Yeah. Right? We, we value transparency probably more than we value money in some ways. We value transparency. So, you know, and take that advice to heart and not just because Dave is, is a guest here and we're treating him well, but because we actually want the best for you, we're talking on this show because we want the best for the people who listen to this show. Absolutely. You know, when you talk about, when you talk about manipulation, right, the face that comes immediately to my mind is palpatine, right? You know, everything relates to Star Wars in my mind, but you know, when I, when I picture that senator that is, you know, jostling for position and ultimately becoming the emperor, right? I mean, that's, that's what manipulation is, right? It is that, that twisted, too faced, you know, conniving behind the scenes kind of a thing where, you know, you, you see that smile, you know, to your face and then you see something completely different. And the, the, the interesting thing is that the Jedi are no different, right? The Jedi mind tricks are all about getting somebody to do something that they don't really want to do. It's, if that same manipulative marketing practice and it's, it's counterproductive and it's destructive and the, the openness is, it's just a better way to live. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Thank you so much again, Dave, for being on Developer Tea. Well, thank you to Jonathan. It's been a great pleasure and I really enjoy talking. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Developer Tea and for joining me for my interview with Dave Real. Thank you again to Dave for coming on to the show. Go and check out developeronfire.com to see all of the amazing content that Dave is producing and we'll be on the lookout for Dave's new podcast in the future. Thank you again to today's sponsor, Chartio. If you want to connect all of your services that seems like Amazon, RDS, Cassandra, Redshift, and CSV file uploads or data from Heroku, go and check out what Chartio has to offer. I'm just barely scratching the surface on what Chartio does for you. Go and check it out, spec.fm slash Chartio that's spec.fm slash CHA RTIO. In the next episode, we will jump back into the developer career roadmap. If you don't want to miss out on future episodes I've developed a T, including the developer career roadmap. Go and subscribe in whatever podcasting app you use. It takes just a few seconds and all of the future episodes will be delivered to your device. So much for listening and until next time, enjoy your tea.