Hey everyone and welcome to Developer Tea. My name is Jonathan Cutrell and in today's episode I'm interviewing Josh Muccio. Josh is the creator of the pitch.fm. It is a podcast about pitching. We will talk all about Josh's podcast later on in today's episode. Of course it is the week after Christmas when this airs. We've been off for a couple of episodes so welcome back. If you haven't subscribed make sure you subscribe and whatever podcasting app you use if you don't want to miss out on future episodes. For example, the second part of today's interview with Josh. We don't have a sponsor for today's episode so the interview is totally just straightforward. There's not going to be any interruptions so I hope you enjoy this interview with Josh Muccio. Welcome to the show Josh. Hey, great to be here. We've already been talking. So I hate to make my listeners think that this is the first time I'm saying hi to you. We had to cut ourselves off because we were getting into some interesting discussions and positive opinions and that kind of thing. I'm really excited about this interview. I haven't done an interview in a while. We've been kind of on like a dry spell on the interview front with Developer Tea for a little while because I did the developer career roadmap episodes for a little bit. There's 10 or so of those. Awesome. Yeah. Then we do listener questions and all that. So I'm really excited to get back into interviews and this is a really good one to get into. I think it fits on Developer Teaperfectly. Josh, you are the host of the pitch and I'm going to let you kind of give the meta-pitch about the pitch right now. If you have a show called the pitch, I should be able to pitch it, right? Yeah, absolutely. So our show is a podcast that's a lot like the TV show Shark Tank. So entrepreneurs come on and they pitch their ideas, they pitch their businesses and on the show we have investors hopefully in either investing in their company or saying no, I'm not going to invest and here's why. We're about to go into our second season of the show and yeah, we actually between you and me and everyone listening, we had $1.5 million invested in companies on season two. So that's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah, you should be. That's a huge number especially. I mean, podcasts, that's a very unique idea for podcasts by the way. So tell the listeners like are you playing kind of the moderator role? Are you playing the investor role or how does, where do you fit into this? Maybe the silent producer? Well, I would say all of the above except for so I'm the host. I am not the investor at this point in time. I hope to be at some point in the future just because I like this stuff but I'm not right now right now. I'm the host and the silent producer in the background. So it was actually an investor that reached out to me because of another podcast I was doing and said, hey, I've always thought it'd be cool to do a podcast like Shark Tank and he kind of had some different ideas from where it would go. But over time we've been doing it for about a year and a half. We've kind of found ourselves in the show essentially and that's kind of how we got here. But yeah, I'm the guy, you know, the brains in the background kind of thing. So you sent me this link to the previous podcast that you had. It was called Daily Hunt. It was called Daily Hunt. Yeah. Very nice. So you interviewed a good friend of mine, Brian Levin, who is of course a host on develop or not a host on devotee. He is a host on design details another show on the spec network. That was the first show, right? Well we co-started spec together actually. So yeah, design details and Developer Teaboth launched on the 5th of January coming up on two years ago. Oh, I didn't know that because I found out about design details first, well obviously because of that. Sure. Yeah, exactly. And so that's how that's how things got rolling. But you know, those guys have been developing a lot of the relationships and they've been doing a lot. I mean, obviously they're out on the west coast and I'm over here in my whole and east coast. So I'm down in Florida. There you go. So it's they're a little bit more obviously the concentration of hosts and shows is weighted towards the west coast for us. Yes. But yeah, so yeah, so we started it together. And that's just a really interesting little overlap there. Yeah, it is. And believe it or not, when we first launched, Bryn actually reached out to me separately and was just like, hey, I love what you're doing. You guys are going to absolutely crush it. He asked for, you know, if like if there's anything he could do to help. And like we even actually spent a good amount of time trying to figure out how to do advertising and like because to me, I was like, I have no clue how this advertising works on podcasts and stuff. Yep. So yeah, he's been super awesome. And I'm just kind of I'm kind of just kind of excited to be on a spec FM show actually. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, we actually kind of started our relationship the same way. We got in touch with each other because both of us were doing similar stuff and we saw each other's names on message boards and, you know, upvoting places and that kind of thing. And, and, you know, needed to learn stuff. And, you know, we were both very, both very new. Both shows were obviously brand new and we didn't know anything about advertising or any of the rest of it. And so we just decided to trade ideas. That's awesome. And he didn't give you hard time for living in Chattanooga. He didn't. You know, Chattanooga actually to the blind eye, Chattanooga seems like a middle of nowhere kind of place. But if you give me like five minutes, I can actually pitch you on Chattanooga. You're pretty good if you're here. One of the great things we have, by the way, is the gig internet. So at my house right now, I have gigabit internet and it's like cheaper than the most providers provide. From Google or is this from somebody else? No, this is actually the first gigabit internet in the country. It's by a company called the EPB. And if you go and look it up, there's a lot of cool history around it. But it's basically there's some government ties and it's a utility service. So it's kind of a different weird loophole thing where it's very affordable and the service is really good. And it's actually like something that pretty much all Chattanoogans are pretty proud to have. I would be really proud of it too. The only thing you guys don't seem to have is a Chipotle if I'm correct. Yeah, you're absolutely correct. That's the one scourge of Chattanooga really that remains. There was a little bit of an opinion poll going around of what should replace a restaurant that was going out of business downtown and pretty much everyone said Chipotle. Even though everything else downtown, we've made it as little chains as possible. And everybody's just like, Chipotle is allowed though. Chipotle is allowed. It's the exception. That's awesome. Yeah, it's the exception to the rule. So the pitch, this is like a Shark Tank show. You're at episode number 48. Obviously, you've seen a lot of, is that correct episode 48? Yeah, I mean, probably 49 by the time this goes live. Sure. Yeah, but I mean, our initial 50 episodes did not actually have investments happening on the air. That was probably the biggest complaint is like we were saying that we were the Shark Tank podcast, but we can never find investors who would actually make any kind of commitment in an hour. That's the big change in season two. And it took a lot of work to make that happen. But, oh, yeah, no kidding. So season two, where are we now? Season two is out now. No, season two starts January 11th. So one of those episodes have gone live yet. Well, there you go. But you already have them in the works then. Yeah, yeah, we're in the works. And I've actually kind of grown the team a little bit because I feel like after we did the recording of it, I knew I had something to do. Something really good on my hands. And I also felt acutely aware of my inability is essentially to take it to where it needs to go. Like it just had so much potential and listening to the tape. And so I tried my bestest to kind of break into a world that I'm not into. And that was the world of public radio and people that know how to do narrative storytelling. So kind of the traditional highly produced podcasts that you hear, WNYC's Radio Lab or the Gimlet shows or any show by NPR, those type of shows. And so I tried to kind of grab some people from there, at least part time and get them working on the project. And it took a few months, but we've actually got a great team of people working on it. And that's probably what's most exciting to me is it's not just... The show, the first season was just me and all the decisions were made inside my own head. And now we're actually... We're actually making good decisions and I'm learning a bunch. Multiple people's opinions and interesting experience from different arenas and everything else. So as you can tell, hopes are high for season two. Yeah, that's exciting. So you mentioned that season two brings the change that there are going to be investments on air. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, yeah. It's... Yeah, I'm 1.5 million was invested. So... And the other thing that we're doing that's really key is we're actually kind of being our own accountability partner as a show. And instead of just publishing the episodes and because you know Shark Tank, two thirds of the deals that actually happen on Shark Tank, we're quite a... We're going to fall through, right? Two thirds of them fall through. So for us, we know some of the deals that happen are going to fall through and do dealagents. And like there's nothing we can do about it, but at least we can let our listeners in on that and make that a part of the story instead of acting like it didn't happen. So there will be episodes where it kind of ends a certain way and there was investment. But then in the end, maybe one or two of the investors didn't end up investing or the inverse could happen and you know, they end up investing more than they committed to on the show. That sort of thing. Sure. Or maybe the product owner backs out. That's another option. So it'll be really interesting. Part of me really hopes that one of the companies just totally bombs and folds up shop. Just because it would make an interesting story. Like, I don't wish that on anybody in particular. But yeah, it would make me crazy. Some of my favorite stories on Shark Tank are the ones that are like the kind of the told you so stories of the products that are really good and no shark ever actually invest. But they still follow up with the one because it's like, well, it's too public now. People are going to know that they went on and were successful without the Shark Tank. And we have to cover it now. So what was that one that I heard about? I think it was it was, I don't know what it was called, but it was just a phone. It was a brick replacement of a phone that didn't actually work and it was made, I guess, to be like, like a cigarette patch would be here, like a nicotine patch. But for your phone having so like you can hold something up to your ear and they just crushed on there. Like this is a dumbass idea. Terrible idea. Yeah. Sure. But then again, Yu also looks like it's a lot more of a great time and you're not certain to remember when himself and your son are in a situation where you don't allow them to be motivated withとか or get to them by your own occasionally or deploy them but it's probably in time. Oh, yeah. Naturally and naturally, it's definitely a government ramen皆さん. I just hope that almost never got nothing out of it. Quite. We don't have anything to do with a sz Thank you the так Nako game. How do you remember? I don't like it. My soy sauce. What? When you wear thisan, your life. I think it started out long ago. Well, remember it's a phlegm. It's quite a bit too full. Mine doesn't look healthy. I think you can change your life but it's my favorite sort anyway. I've just know that I heard about. But yeah, no, I don't know. Yeah, any of the ones you're talking about. We actually, that's a weird overlap. We talked about media addiction on episode number three of Developer Tea and how there's some interesting, pretty compelling statistics about how often you actually just literally lift your phone up and then put it back down. Even if you weren't doing anything meaningful, just looking at it and unlocking it and then locking it right back and how much energy and time and mental, you know, I guess mental energy that's taking from your day, it's pretty crazy. There's some really interesting statistics. Have you guys talked about on the show flow state at all, like getting in the flow or the zone for where? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, absolutely we have. Yeah, I feel like that's the battle for me. It's like every time I'm looking at my phone, it's a moment that I could be in the zone elsewhere or it's a moment that took me out of the zone or like it, yeah, I don't know. It's, I'm always like every couple of weeks or maybe every couple of months, I'm like having a come to Jesus moment. I'm like, I gotta shut this thing. I gotta delete another 10 or 15 apps. I gotta shut off notifications on these five or six apps and it like it always gets worse and then I have to. You know, I almost just said I should do an episode on that but let's just talk about it now. There's a really interesting thing happening there that we, as a culture, we wanna eradicate technology as a solution for our lack of focus, right? And because we have, there's some level of, somebody's sending us this message, whether it's someone in the media or maybe it's our parents or, you know, but our generation specifically, and when I say hour, I mean, you know, people who are between 20 and 40 or so with some fuzzy boundaries there, we know what it's like to have little technology or no technology taking up our attention. And there's something about that feeling of not having technology that we want to go back to. It's almost like a Luddite desire to return to our roots in a way. And I would say, it's my position that need to purge is actually the wrong solution to the right problem. I think that just trying to go, yeah, I think I was trying to go back to our roots is really, it's not the complete solution. I think some of the things that we can do, certainly there are things we can do. Like for example, I'm a huge proponent of do not disturb all the time, right? Like turning off notifications, turning off all the push stuff, sorry for those of you who make products that have push. But I've even told people, you know, if you get push notifications that a new episode of a Developer Tea is coming out in the middle of your work day, and it messes up your focus, I don't want that. Like, I don't want to interrupt you. And I don't think that it's a good, I don't think it's healthy to be interrupted. But at the same time, you know, technology has the opportunity. I believe that technology is kind of inherently moldable, right? So it can be good or it can be bad. And I think we have this bad tendency to think that it is inherently bad for our focus. But we can use it to increase our focus too, right? There's a lot of pliability there. It's true. We do tend to kind of blame these companies and say like, well, you shouldn't, the default shouldn't be to have all these notifications. And while it's, that's true, like they're trying to drive profits and things like that. So they aren't thinking like that. In fact, somebody was trying to make the argument that like, you should be, you know, watching out for our best interests as a technology company and things like that. Have you heard of near I all, I don't even know how to say his last name, but the guy who wrote the book hooked. I believe so, yeah. So he's a whole, I haven't read the book. But the whole premise is like how to build products, they're gonna keep users coming back and coming back and coming back. And like how to feed their addictions and a big focus of the book is actually notifications whether they're email or SMS or push notifications or whatever. And how to craft those in a way that, you know, drives a return for your company. And then he goes on to like become an influencer that talks about how to essentially counter that if you're a consumer and not get hooked by all of these companies. He's like, he's like making both sides of this theory and war on most, right? Yeah, but just kind of crazy that he's able to do that. So how often do you have, do not disturb on your phone? I'm curious. As often as it is on my body, it's pretty much always on do not. And the first thing I do when I sit down in my computer is option click, I don't know if you know this, if you're on a Mac that the, I guess it's called the notification, I don't know what the icon is called, but it's the notification like slide out thing that comes out of the right. Yeah, you can option click that little icon and it turns do not disturb on for your computer. And that's the first thing I do every time I sit down in my computer. And it's amazing. Here's the thing. It's amazing and maybe because I have crafted my life this way and the people that I work with, they know that I'm this way. And so I've kind of trained them to treat me in a particular way. Hopefully I'm not that disillusioned to my situation, but it's amazing how little I need those notifications now. How much I thought that I needed them and then now that I don't have them, how little it has actually impacted the work that I do in a negative way. If somebody really, really wants to get a hold of you and it's really important, they're probably on your favorites list and so they can call you and it's going to get through to your phone, right? Well, all of my, do not disturb, doesn't remove calling, I don't believe, or at least it doesn't. I think it removes it from people. I think it lets people on your favorites list through, or people that call twice in a row, is my understanding of it. Okay, yeah, that's probably the truth. You don't just lack notifications on your computer. No, no, I don't get slack notifications. I do have the badges on Slack specifically, partially because spec has a Slack channel, partially because my whiteboard, we work through Slack and so somebody is really needing something, they can add, and director, whatever, mention, that's what's, mention me in Slack and I'll see the number red, the batch, but what I won't do is set up like channel notifications, right? Or like, I'm not going to put a number down at the bottom for every single time somebody throws something in general, you know? Oh, God. Yeah, that's not useful for me. And so I try to limit all of that kind of extra push and all of the push notifications that I can possibly remove from individual applications on my phone. I'll turn those off as well. Yeah, that's really smart. And actually, you know, for me, it's like, it's a combination of the push notifications, but then it's also this just incescent desire to like pop up open my phone and I guess get some sort of dopamine fix. Is that the cabinet, the neuro-transparent? Yeah, it's the natural thing. Yeah, the dopamine stuff. Anyway, so that, I'm always like pulling out my phone and checking Facebook for no freaking reason. And, you know, oh, yeah, here's another, like, somebody invited me to play some other stupid game. Like, that's the only notification I have. Like, this is even though I have badges and notifications and everything shut off on the stupid thing. Like, I still go to, so I finally got fed up with myself and I just deleted the app yesterday. And I'm still kind of wondering, you know, what's happening on Facebook, but like, I'll check it later and it'll be fine. Yeah, that's interesting. It's interesting you bring up some Facebook specifically. I don't try to preach this because I know there's really a lot of varying opinions and everybody has their own way of doing things. I get on Facebook probably once every maybe three weeks to four weeks. That's awesome. What was your friends that have had babies and stuff? Yeah, not even, well, not even that. Usually it's just, did somebody try to message me and get my address to send me like a Christmas card? Or something like that. That's the level of investment, right? But on the flip side, you know, every time I open a new tab, I'm typing Twitter faster than I can think. And so if it's not one thing, your brain is gonna just naturally fill it. So you have to keep, you have to be pretty vigilant about it. I do have an app that actually works pretty well. I don't like to promote tons of like specific apps, but this particular app I've talked about before, it's called Focus. It's literally the Focus app. It is a paid app and I actually did buy it. I had the free version for a little while. I wanted the scripting features and stuff like that. So I went ahead and bought the paid one. I don't know if they do a timed thing, like a time trial now or whatever it is, but if you can gain focus from something, the argument that I would present is that it's probably worth a little bit of money. And you can also do this yourself, especially as a developer, you know, you can run into your hosts file and change, you know, have your own blacklist of stuff. But I figured it was, you know, it's a nice enough app. It sits in my menu bar and it helps me, it actually does help because those initial urges to run to, you know, Twitter or whatever, you're gonna see something that's not expected. Like it's gonna be something totally different from Twitter. It's not gonna hit you the same way. It blocks it. Does it work with Safari? Cause that's actually my browser of choice. It works with everything because it's at the system level. And you can have like a hardcore mode, which is kind of dangerous in that like you, you, you, you can't turn it off, right? So like even if you really badly need to get to, like if you're a developer and you need to get like to dev.twitter.com or something to change access token. If that's in your blackout list, you're not gonna get to it. Dang. Okay. It's invasive, but it's a good kind of invasive. So it really kind of forces you to stick to your guns and do things, quote unquote, the right way. Yeah. Assuming that you believe that, you know, intense focus is the right way. That's really cool. I think I was checking out. I had heard good things about it, but then I saw that it was a paid product and I was like, net, I'll pass. Yeah. And there's so many free things that do, you know, something similar and there, there are replacements for that. It was just to me that aesthetically, most pleasing version. And so I just decided to bite the bullet and buy it. Yep. Is it a, it's a one time thing. I thought maybe it was a SaaS product or something. And maybe that's what I'm getting confused by. I think it is a one time thing. And it may be that it's a one time thing, but if they update it to a new big number version that it'll be paid again, I don't know. Okay. I can't imagine needing much more feature wise out of this thing. It does like timers, like Pomodoro timers and the big fan and Pomodoro. Yeah. We've talked about that on the show as well, but it does that kind of timer for you. So it'll set 45 minutes and then you get 15 minutes to go and, you know, Reddit.com, whatever. And then you return back to your work phase. So I like the idea of the Pomodoro timer system. Yep. But every time I get in a flow state, I work for way longer than 25 minutes. Yeah. And so to me to like get out of that state to go, like, you know, make myself go walk around for five minutes, it's just tough. It's to me, it seemed pointless. And so I just, I was like, yeah, I'll just keep working. And everybody has their own number, right? So some people have just insane amounts of focus when they are in flow state. Okay. I probably have a little bit longer than the average person, but I'm not as long, my focus, like limit, I guess you could call it is not as, not as lengthy as my bosses, for example. I can focus. He can send focus. His whole, he has like a whole day, Pomodoro basically. He can sit and just stay focused the whole day. He's got a huge... You have to made up. So, but the reality is like, the problem with that is that you're gonna eventually burn out. It's kind of like running a race, right? Even though initially you do have plenty of energy to just blast past everyone, you don't want to use it. Like you need to have a little bit of that reserve and a little bit of that respite so that you can, you know, later on in the day, for example, if you need to actually engage in a meeting at 4 p.m. with a client, like, and bringing us back to our original discussion, you have the energy to pitch, right? There you go. There we are. We are you back. I knew we would get there eventually. We just had to find our way around. We had to find our way through the forest. It's a journey. I mean, let's stick on the subject of a flow state for like one more minute and then we'll continue on to the pitch. I mean, flow state, it is something that we've talked about before on this show, but it's also something that's not really like a scientific thing, right? Like everybody has their own way of getting there. There's some research around, for example, practicing flow state by doing meditation. There's some research around. If you are exercising regularly, you're probably going to be able to tap into your mental energy a little bit better. There's a lot of mystical kind of discussion around it as well that I wouldn't really promote on this show, at least. And then there's new tropics and pills you can take. Tons of stuff. I mean, there's a whole industry that's going to be built off of this stuff. And not to say one way or the other, because honestly, I haven't done enough research to say that that stuff is valid or invalid. But I do know that for me, some of the most important parts of flow state is making sure I walk into that day with at least a general plan, right? Like we can talk about ideals all day long, but my ideal day is when I wake up and I know exactly what I need to do rather than someone else bombarding me with what they need me to do. That's so good, but I am so bad at that. Like I don't have people bombarding me all day because I am my own boss and I have the luxury of that and I'm extremely blessed. But I also hate myself at the end of every day because if I do make a plan, like none of the stuff on the thing gets done. And so I always start the week with like great ambitions by Tuesday, I'm like, why don't I even write this plan down? I'm getting nothing done from it. I got all these other things done. I guess I just need self-discipline. I don't know. I'm like, I'm trying to get better. Here's nothing. So let me ask you this. How large are those lists that you're writing? So like for a given day, how many things are you trying to say, yeah, I need to accomplish, is it like 10 things? Is it 15? Or is it like two or three? So the things I write down are like, it's only four or five things. They're totally attainable. But the problem is when I get started on that first thing or even before I start that first thing, I almost seems like a mind map to follow, at the end of the day, follow what bunny trails took me where. So I can self-diagnose what's happening. But you can go put signs at the head of those bunny trails so you never go down them again. Exactly. They're like install a focus program for my brain. But I think of, before you get started on task number one, I think of five other tiny things that need to get done. I'll just get this done real quick. And that of course leads to some other thing or a series of things that I'll do. And like that just compounds throughout a day for me or combine that with notifications from other people of stuff that I need to do real quick. And all of a sudden my plans, my lists get completely shot. Yeah. Well, in the amazing thing, Josh, and I feel like this is really good for people to hear that a guy who started a podcast where $1.5 million was recently invested through that podcast feels like he's not getting anything done. Like that's, I would venture to say that, yeah, partially true maybe. Like maybe you have, maybe you're learning how to develop good habits, whatever. But also this has got to be at least partially a product of our culture or something similar to that. Yeah. Like you didn't accidentally do the pitch. No, that's for dang sure. Yeah, that's, it's taking a lot of work. And to be honest, I think this is probably a similar trait of mine. It's, I've had to take a lot of effort for me to actually continue working on the pitch. I'd say about, I don't know, six months into it. I was like, okay, I'm ready for the next thing like onboard. But you really don't, at least not in my experience. You don't find like true success or profit, or even profitability oftentimes in six months on a thing. Like at that point, you just then like have your initial learnings that you can go to actually make the thing that you originally set out to create, you know, and for our show, I mean, it actually took longer than six months. And it kind of took the support of people around me and me like making myself stop doing stuff. Because man, I will, I will take care until the cows come home on the most pointless stuff. And it's like, it's truly fun in initial phases. But then when it comes time to like, you know, turning into a serious business, like I don't, I don't wanna do it. And so, but I'll spend all this time launching stuff and you know, buying domains for no freaking good reason is a problem I have as well. So, like, well, I have plenty of those just sitting in my, in my go-da-to-you-account, which, you know, is still just a horrible, horrible service in my opinion. It is, it is. I moved my domains away from theirs just because I got sick of them. Yeah, no offense. If somebody's listening to this and you work at GoDaddy, then I'm very sorry if I offended you. But yeah, it's like the necessary evil in my life. One of the few. Yeah, well, at least they're cheap. Yeah, that's really what it comes down to. So, all right, the pitch, we talked around it quite a bit now, but what I wanna talk to you about is not the show itself specifically, but rather what you've learned about pitching because every person who's listening to this show, I'm gonna go on a little rant here about selling. Every person who's listening to this show, whether you like it or not, and this is maybe an unfortunate truth or maybe it's an opportunity, take it for what you will, but whether you like it or not, selling is gonna be a part of your career. Now, you're saying, well, selling is not a part of my career. I have nothing to do with the clients or I don't actually do any work with getting people to spend money, but selling is not just about spending money. Selling is about convincing other people of something that you know to be true. This is my definition of selling at least. Something that you believe, strongly enough that you want other people to also believe it, and then going and presenting something to them that moves them into the same opinion sphere that you're in. In other words, they start to agree with you. That is what selling is about. It's about learning about value, right? You're gonna have to do this at many different stages in your career. On day one, you're gonna have to convince yourself, even, that spending time learning how to do something that you have no idea how to do is worth your time. You're gonna have to buy what you're selling, right? So it starts on day one, but it goes all the way through to the end of your career. You're gonna be talking to potential future employers in interviews, and you're gonna be trying to sell what you have to offer to their team. You're gonna be talking to potential investors. Let's say you're an entrepreneur. And exactly like what is on the pitch, the podcast. And you're gonna be talking to people who they have money and they're ready to help make what you have in your mind, your invention, your product, your creation, your service, whatever it is, make it a reality, right? So selling is gonna be a part of your life whether you like it or not. Josh, I want you to talk a little bit about what you have learned about selling and about pitching by listening to people over and over and over, pitch what they have. Well, I'll tell you, I've definitely heard how not to do it. And I've heard how not to do it 10,000 times because it has the producer and editor of the show. That means I also get to play back these people's pitches over and over and over again. And actually I'll make them sound better than they actually were by cutting out the parts where they ramble and cutting out all their ums and aes and things like that. So, but that's just delivery. And I think people mess up on their pitch way before the delivery. And then from the very like onset of it, you assume that the person you're talking to has a similar set of priorities to yourself. And so when you pitch something, you're often gonna say, well, I'm building this and like it's gonna be awesome. And you don't really sell essentially the benefits of it to that specific person. So I'd say the number one rule of pitching is you can't memorize your pitch. There is no perfect version of your pitch. There's a version of your pitch for every person you're talking to and connecting the dots for them and their mind and what your thing, your idea, yourself, like whatever it is that you're selling, how it applies or benefits them or interacts with them is like, that's the message. You have to get it there. And so for me, we're always talking about, what does this mean for investors? Which is like what you're selling is the opportunity, the potential upside, why you're an amazing founder to work with or why you as a person are worth betting on. Like those are all, you're always selling yourself in every feature in. So that's a constant. But that would probably be the first, my number one recommendation. And if that's all you get out of this is to think of your product or your thing that you're building from other people's point of view and how it might benefit them, I'd say you'll be good to go. There's of course more to it than that. But Josh, I'm elated that this is where you started because this is something that 100% support in pretty much every facet. But more specifically, when people go into interviews, I get more questions on this show about interviews or about the two topics that I get most questions about are learning and interviews. And interviews are resumes or the job searching process. And a lot of people ask, what should I put on my resume or how should I dress? And all of these very specific questions about that process of finding a job, 99% of the time the answer is found by switching seats. So this is what I tell people to do all the time. I tell them to just for 10 minutes, just put yourself in that employer's seat. The person you are talking to act like you're them for 10 minutes. What do you want? What do you want as that person? As a boss, for example, I want you to be dependable. I want you to challenge the other people on my team and I want you to add value to the team. If you can come in and prove to me that you're gonna do those things, the hire is much more likely, right? Then if you just come in and tell me all the things that you're good at and all the things that you want, right? Those are two different ways of thinking about pitching yourself as a future employee. And a lot of people get that wrong. A lot of people walk in and they say, you know, this is what, this is my salary point. This is where I want to be. Here's my skill sets. Here's my list of all the letters that you need to see. Here's where I went to school and look at my nice suit. And that's very little value in that, right? You're not really even connecting with me when you do that. Instead, you're kind of like, people are treating it more like a trade show than they are a conversation, right? They're just like putting themselves on display rather than trying to sell. Crossing all their teas and donting their eyes. Yeah, not that important. Exactly. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Developer Tea. Of course, this was our interview with Josh Muccio. Make sure you go and subscribe to the pitch by going to thepitch.fm. Of course, the pitch is available in pretty much any podcasting app just like Developer Tea is. So go and click subscribe if you don't want to miss out on the season two start to the pitch. We will be talking about the pitch more in the next episode of Developer Tea, part two of my interview with Josh Muccio. Thank you for listening. And until next time, enjoy your tea. Dramb unstoppable and